[19:09 UTC] *** Logging started. *** [12:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: welcome :) [12:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: abotu last week code changes.. [12:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: just a few changes on map, this time also grid side, to save a bit of CO2 [12:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ie cpu heat.. ie cpu time :) [12:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: no idea why we where stil using bitmap gfetpixel/setpixel on grid side [12:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well known to be terrible slow [12:12 PM PT] Lyr Lobo nods [12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: we got a email for joe, about a future ll change on viewer/region messages protocol [12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well.. tpvs need to support what we have.. [12:14 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: the decision to follow that or not will depend on the respective future, and most likely will only look when it shows up on a viewer for opensim ( yesa potencial chicken-egg issue ) [12:15 PM PT] Joe Magarac: That's all part of PBR. [12:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: lludp side a bit more a concern, bc may cause issues with older viewers [12:15 PM PT] Joe Magarac: It's live on the SL beta grid now. [12:15 PM PT] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi everybody [12:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm looked like attachment points, not pbr [12:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but dunno [12:15 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hi [12:15 PM PT] Joe Magarac: The trick is that you don't get those UDP messages unless you ask for a capability that says you understand PBR. [12:16 PM PT] Joe Magarac: That's how SL is doing backwards viewer compatibility. [12:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well viewers need to adapt to both versions.. even checking packet size on lludp [12:16 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Yes, I hit that. Some UDP messages have grown. [12:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: not currently checking that [12:17 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess ill need :) [12:17 PM PT] Joe Magarac: I do check that in Sharpview, and was logging errrors and wondering where the extra data was coming from. [12:17 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but on pbr there was no need so far [12:17 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well possible not send some overrides may help as transition thing [12:17 PM PT] Joe Magarac: This is PBR round 2, which does more on UDP and less on the event poller. [12:18 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: fun ll wasn't going to drop UPD ? [12:18 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Overrides are coming in as a new UDP generic message. [12:18 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yes getting them here :) [12:19 PM PT] Joe Magarac: OK. I don't fully understand PBR at the message level yet. I'm just passing this info along. [12:19 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well what you shown on the email was about avatar attachment points, whatever those are [12:19 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i mean to need to be sent.. [12:20 PM PT] Joe Magarac: I'm not sure how avatar attachment points work. [12:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well they are fixed things ( as defined on a xml fle ) [12:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: file [12:21 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: from the link on your email "More sl-20635 - moved new attachment data to AvatarAppearance message " [12:22 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Right. [12:22 PM PT] Joe Magarac: For now, I'm just passing that along. [12:22 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: thanks :) [12:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: as i said, sadly those changes may mean more compatibily code on viewers [12:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: not only because we may not support the feature, but also because any change we do takes months to reach grids etc [12:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: what is their branch DRTVWR-600-maint-A ? [12:25 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Right. It's better if you don't need a mode switch. Supporting two ways of doing the same thing is better than supporting two viewer versions. If SL started supporting varregions tomorrow, Sharpview would accept them. [12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well whatever.. ll things :) [12:27 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: How is pbr even going to work hypergrid? If I move content to a non-pbr grid it'll strip matovrd from the asset no? Should we then not make hypergrid incompatible to prevent attachments losing pbr data? [12:27 PM PT] Joe Magarac: https://github.com/secondlife/viewer/tree/DRTVWR-600-maint-A is the link you wanted. [12:28 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh i see that they did explain what that is to you... [12:28 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/508149-did-the-avatarappearance-message-get-some-new-data-fields/ [12:29 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: in fact on crossings and tps, we wil have issues sending that info, bc attach objects arrive a lot later.. [12:29 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Right,that's my post on SL forums. [12:30 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: so yeah.. that seems to be mostly "noise" TO US [12:30 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: to us [12:30 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: DRTVWR-600-maint-A is more or less only a new main branch. They restarted on A since they had exhausted the alphabet in with the DRTVWR-599-maint-Z. It has not gotten many updates yet, but SL-20635 is one of them [12:30 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well back to current opensim [12:31 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah like all new things, teleports specially HG to regions without pbr will be a issue [12:31 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm not sure it justifies a protocol version change though that is why I am asking [12:31 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess most time, pbr will be ignored on the receiving end [12:32 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and possible another reason to block any appearence chages on HG trips [12:32 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: already a but suicidal.. [12:32 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and a bit [12:33 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: On one hand it would prevent users from breaking their clothes, but blocking hg just over that for everyone as a result seems aggressive [12:33 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well ppl should knwo that they need to travel light on HG.. [12:33 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: bento was a issue also :) [12:34 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: soem scripts are a issue also.. [12:34 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: etc [12:34 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I regularly see hg users start sorting their inventory while elsewhere, which is a workout for the region to do, I think that ship has sailed [12:34 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We can assume what can break will break [12:35 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well i did add some block of teleports related to the universal wearable etc [12:35 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: mb can extend to pbr prims.. duhhh [12:36 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gotta wait one way or the other for LL to finally figure out what they want to ultimately do with all these new shiny things [12:36 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I still don't see a clear direction from them [12:37 PM PT] Joe Magarac: The next big LL move is uploading glTF files somehow. [12:37 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: they just push fw... [12:37 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is a nonsense move [12:37 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: gltf is a stupid thing to use on streaming [12:37 PM PT] Joe Magarac: They're trying to move towards standards. [12:37 PM PT] Joe Magarac: No, no, you don't send glTF to the viewer. [12:37 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unfortunately they don't understand the standards and wnat to do it their own way [12:38 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: has they already found, adding that new udp messages [12:38 PM PT] Joe Magarac: It's for uploads, instead of COLLADA. [12:38 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well that is just another importer [12:38 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: possilbe better a FBX one instead gltf [12:38 PM PT] Joe Magarac: FBX isn't a standard, it's just something Autodesk uses. [12:38 PM PT] Joe Magarac: glTF is a standard with documents. [12:39 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and use industry standard texture compressors instead on jk2000 [12:39 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: nahh everyone uses [12:39 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Blender and Maya speak glTF, so SL just has to follow along. [12:39 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well a lot more than the users of collada or gltf [12:40 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can't say I have made good experiences with gltf in the past, usually seemed like everyone rolled their own interpretation of the standard and nothing was fully compatible... [12:40 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: speak means nothing [12:40 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: collada in regards to SL has had similar issues, it has gotten better though [12:40 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Everybody renders the "bistro" test scene a little differently . [12:40 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Still not full to the standard as of last I heard from Beq [12:41 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well importers i fine [12:41 PM PT] Joe Magarac: No, there's lots of stuff in glTF that SL doesn't do yet. [12:41 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but what we saw with pbr was the full use of gltf on assrts [12:41 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is .. BAD [12:41 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: There's lots of stuff in cololada that SL never did [12:41 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: gltf is just 2 much verbose.. 2 much junk [12:42 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: SL mantra right there [12:42 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: sure a bit less than nonsense xml.. [12:42 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: of collada [12:42 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Yes, shipping glTF to the viewer as JSON inside notation LLSD was a mess. [12:42 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well tey still do it on the asset [12:42 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and on uploads [12:43 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: the asset is gltf [12:43 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well a super stripped down gltf [12:44 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: All this just to create even less frames on the viewer end with all the fancy shaders clogging up the renderer [12:44 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Slideshows! [12:44 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well nvidia wants to sell rtx4090 [12:45 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: LL investing in nvidia stock or something? [12:45 PM PT] Joe Magarac: No, by the time you get to rendering, it's all low-level mesh. [12:45 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well epic sure seems to [12:46 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: unreal 5 is great for the electric power companies also... nice bills at end of month :P [12:46 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: 600w on gpu, 300w on cpu lol [12:47 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: How's that even going to compute when they also push for a mobile viewer... I don't even wanna imagine that [12:47 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel this fs 7 is working - ok [12:47 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: just a bit more power usage [12:48 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have to go - phone call [12:48 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: cya gavin.Hird [12:48 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Should keep the fingers warm at least huh [12:48 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and pbr is a old thing .. all games have it.. even more complex one [12:48 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ll pbr is a simpler model [12:49 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It reminds me of like the first games that had mirrors [12:49 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: playstation 2 era [12:50 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel ofc i hat that ocean water and sky near sun is a mess on this pbre thing [12:50 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: I used to warm my office in the winter with an Nvidia Quatro video card. My new GPU uses less power.... [12:50 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: hate i mean [12:51 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: they claim that the 4080 uses less power no? [12:51 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well half the PCI lanes.. only supports 8, etc [12:51 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm or 4060? [12:52 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: think it is the 4060 sorry [12:52 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I don't even have an rtx card yet, things just won't go down in price [12:52 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Things themselves cost as much as the rest of the hardware combined [12:53 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah [12:53 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: AI hasn't solved that problem yet... it's actively causing it [12:53 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: 2200 euros a 4090 lol [12:54 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Meanwhile they are also extending lsl at least so we get some useful functions... well we have had them on ossl for a while now [12:55 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel ll pbr is not the performance eater... at least i don't notice that much [12:55 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: what usefull funtions? [12:55 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hashing things [12:55 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: those are useful?? [12:56 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Doing auth stuff on http requests and encrypting when you cannot use https [12:56 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's something, a little late to the party, but good to have [12:56 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well lsls should not even have http [12:56 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: details ;) [12:56 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm waiting on finalizing the wiki pages before starting implementation, cause never know what bugs they have still to fix on those [12:57 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i didn't look to those [12:57 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc those things are not light at all [12:58 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: one way hashes are okay, but doing full crypto matching and all that is [12:58 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well kinda, the libs in .net for that are not so bad [12:59 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Seem direct copies of C so pretty close to machine performance [12:59 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ideally you don't use those constantly.... ideally [1:00 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Guess I'll run some performance tests once I get them implemented and maybe compare to SL if I can find a willing guinea pig [1:03 PM PT] Lyr Lobo grins [1:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: :) [1:03 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Have a great day! Must dash to rl [1:03 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Have fun, Lyr [1:03 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: thanks! [1:04 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Thanks all. [1:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: cy alyr [1:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: cya Lyr [1:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: any other issue? [1:05 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: if not, lets end the meeting.. Hope to see you all next week :) [20:05 UTC] *** Logging stopped. ***