[18:00 UTC]   *** Logging started. ***
[11:00 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:00 AM PT]  Bill's Chair: This is Bill's Chair
[11:00 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: Hey Andrew
[11:01 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: You need to pick a different chair, Jamie.
[11:01 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi everyone
[11:01 AM PT]  Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everyone
[11:01 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hi, Gavin.
[11:02 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: Is Bill still around?
[11:02 AM PT]  Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: user error sorry
[11:02 AM PT]  Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi all
[11:03 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Let's see, wreck my memory cells on what happened this week
[11:03 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Couple code changes to dotnet
[11:03 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Had a bit of a poke around with the ole httprequest things
[11:03 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Bug report came in that was fixed
[11:04 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Kayaker.
[11:04 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Heya
[11:04 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Hi all!
[11:05 AM PT]  Tess JL: Hi Kayaker
[11:05 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: was that the scripting http stuff or the internal?
[11:05 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: Hi Kay
[11:05 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo grins and waves
[11:05 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so about those last week code changes?
[11:05 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:06 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well as i mentioned last week, dotnet now considers the httpwebrequest things as obsolete.. asking all to replace by httpclient
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: also as i told httpclient is actually worse for our uses..  more limiited etc, done for a simple app that only opens a few sites..
[11:08 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, How big a task will it be to make that change?
[11:08 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in .netframework  httpclient was made on top of httpwebrequest, beens a simplified subset of it
[11:09 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well i did went check dotnet sources and now httpwebrequest as made as a bad wrapper on top of httpclient
[11:09 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so.. we got a degradation on all that..
[11:10 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: whats that mean in terms i can understand?
[11:11 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i did change llhttprequest to directly use httpclient plus some extra needed things now
[11:11 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: as first test for the changes on the like 40 other places where we do use httpwebrequest...
[11:12 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok simpler verriosn..  made changes on llrequest to use recomended ms http code
[11:12 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:12 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: whats it going to break?
[11:13 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc i did change all the code around it...  but to simplyfie a bit
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: from use prespective == useless work..  things should be as they where  :(
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: just needed changes bc nonsense ms changes..
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: whatever..
[11:15 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's a good first test to see how things behave given script http is used quite a bit
[11:15 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: tp's and HG jumps from and to differing versions will be ok?
[11:15 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that's how they can keep their consultant business booming
[11:15 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Of course other places using it a lot more that might cause more issues once changed
[11:16 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: meanwhile we had a bug report on llAddToLandBanList and that did got fixed
[11:16 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: made a few cosmetic changes around that code.. again just "cosmetics"
[11:17 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Arielle I believe this is rewriting some internal stuff to eliminate code that's considered "obsolete" for future-proofing the code as new versions of dotnet are released.  It's a big chunk of work but the change isn;t visible from end users.
[11:17 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there were a few commits with the telling commit message; cosmetics ;-)
[11:17 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: ok thank you Cuga
[11:17 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: just now i did check firestorm changes, and seen that Beq did commit my sugestions to fix the non power of two issue
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: non power of 2 region size i mean.
[11:18 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: That works now?
[11:18 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Where is the protocol documented?
[11:18 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: oh ok she didnt respond in the Jira i put in
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel it did work on my test code
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not sure if gavin had the time to test it on dayturn also?
[11:19 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have not Ubit.
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: its just like 5 lines of code
[11:20 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure, but I am not right there in the process now
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok it is 8 lines inc comments :)
[11:20 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: wasn't it basically a revert since it did work before?
[11:20 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: question, have people found the performance floater in the SL viewer useful
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no
[11:20 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you have tested it?
[11:20 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Non power of two region sizes?!!! When can we try that?
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: thios change does actually make the textures show up on minimap
[11:21 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: like a 3x3 Kay
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i never did find why the log started to show up :)
[11:21 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: and the hit on the FPS
[11:21 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: By "non power of 2" do you mean "integer multiple of 256", or "arbitrary number"?
[11:21 AM PT]  Tess JL: Integer, Joe
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but older viewer where just hidding the log..   with this change theyh should work
[11:21 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because I am debating with myself if I shall even bother to take the performance floater code. I find it utterly useless
[11:22 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: But not smaller than 256.
[11:22 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: the older viewer didnt have the hit on the FPS Ubit
[11:22 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so thats a new change coming in the next FS beta?
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: viewers only like textures that are a integral power of two in size
[11:22 AM PT]  Tess JL: 256xn where n is any integer from  to 16. You're going to limitn the max size to 4096x4096, right?
[11:22 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: more to it  then just not being logged
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: like 256 512 1024 etc
[11:23 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I haven't been in SL ages or updated my SL viewer in ages. I'm not familiar with that floater if it is a recent addition to their viewer.
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: they do not like 768 for example
[11:23 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Documentatation for that should go here: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Varregion/Protocol
[11:23 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it was launched about a week ago in the official SL viewer, but FS have had a version of it for a while
[11:24 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: whne you give them a texture that is not "power of 2" they do a extra step of converting into a power of 2 one
[11:24 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think
[11:24 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but maybe not
[11:24 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: they did not do that on minimap textures
[11:24 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: As some of you know, I've written a new viewer: http://animats.com/sharpview/
[11:24 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: as they are not allowed to lauch any new features before LL does
[11:24 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so it supports 256xn now? or any integer size [11:24 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ohh also a issue for joe :)
[11:24 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: You can download it with username "devs", password "thread".
[11:25 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think I have used that thing once to see what it does, but most people don't want their graphics settings to change on the fly, they'd rather have a bit less fps from time to time
[11:25 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: probably in the beta
[11:25 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: It supports OsGrid and Kitely, as well as SL, but not varregions.
[11:25 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: fs git:
[11:25 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: SHA-1: ab775457178be9bb4f2f9f768e3971e9c555f0d6

* FIX Opensim VarRregions with non-power of 2 sizes flood logs
[11:25 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Agreed Vincent
[11:25 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I don't support varregions because they are not properly documented.
[11:25 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I find it a total distraction
[11:26 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: what you mean..  code is documentation
[11:26 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:26 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: NO, it's not.
[11:26 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:26 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:26 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that can't be
[11:26 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: There are now four completely different viewers.
[11:26 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Better just make the fps number a clickable thing with just an explanation on how graphics settings impact fps and let user make the decision on what they can do without
[11:26 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( this was kinda of a internal joke Joe )
[11:26 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: The C   viewers, LL's mobile viewer, the new Crystal C# viewer, and mine in Rust.
[11:27 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Totally different code bases.
[11:27 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have you see nthe code for the LL mobile viewer?
[11:27 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Might not even be the users fault if the region they are on is filled with so much stuff that it just drains even the most powerful computer
[11:27 AM PT]  Tess JL: Make that five, Snowglobe and Snowstorm have very different codebases and both are still very much in use
[11:27 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Joe, What is the Crystal C# viewer and who is working on that?
[11:28 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes Tess
[11:28 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: Cuteulala has one too but i forget what language it is in
[11:28 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: there is also radagast and (lib/libre)openmetaverse based ones
[11:28 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: It's been mentioned on the SL forums but I have not tried it.
[11:28 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: The new C# viewer is based on libopenmetaverse.
[11:28 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel and a few others on android etc
[11:28 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right.
[11:28 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Which is why we need specs.
[11:29 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Crystal hasn't exactly committed to OpenSim in any form nor seems to want to
[11:29 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well that only uses libre on lludp decode..  the relevant feature of it is beeing Unity engine based
[11:29 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I am willing to support Open Simulator.
[11:29 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: But I need a specification to follow.
[11:29 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I'm not going to reverse-engineer the code.
[11:30 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If something is missing from wiki you can always bother Ubit on irc for help :)
[11:30 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: w also use (OUR FORK) of libopenmetaverse for lludp decode
[11:30 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and some encode..
[11:30 AM PT]  Tess JL: SLightly off topic: another part of the system that really, really need a formal protocol, is hypergrid transfer and communication
[11:30 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: better to explain it once in wiki then multiple times to different viewer devs
[11:30 AM PT]  Tess JL: The question is, who are willing and able to write those docs?
[11:30 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Yes!
[11:31 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: It's not that much to write.
[11:31 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: There's a wiki page for varregions.
[11:31 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: there is another one too Joe
[11:31 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: But it has the old OS LLUDP messages from, I think, the Aurora era. Ubit told me those are dead.
[11:31 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: thats has a little more info
[11:32 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Varregion
[11:33 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: That's the one that says "Implementation Discussion (Obsolete)"
[11:33 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: that other page should be merged and deleted
[11:33 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i said what?
[11:33 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: There are two varregions pages. One is wrong, and one is obsolete?
[11:33 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Last week, when I asked about what would happen if a region had two neighboring regions of a different size, I think Ubit said "crash".
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i said that some of the var region specific changes to protocol now happen to be sent via http event capability, not direct lludp
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but there is also the terrain patchs decode !!
[11:34 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right. And where is that documented.
[11:34 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: My viewer is currently panicking on Zeta grid terrain decode, because I don't know how that works.
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that is a like hack.. part actual done by me in aurora days :)
[11:35 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right. If Open Simulator wants more viewer support, this stuff needs to be accurately documented.
[11:35 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: it is documented in code, OFC  duhhh
[11:35 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( lol )
[11:35 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you have made a decision to write in a completely diffrent programming language be prepared to sort the bumps more or less on your own
[11:36 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: With four or five different code bases, that's not good enough any more.
[11:36 AM PT]  Tess JL: That's another issue you may struggle with, Joe. Some of the commercial grids have made some serious changes to the code and are hardly compatible at all. I know the Dayturn developers have simply given up on figuring out Kitely's asset delivery system and it's possible it's a similar story with Zetaworld's terrain
[11:36 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: documentation has been a sticking point the last few years
[11:36 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: All the LL code is in C   and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future
[11:37 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I'm not going to reverse engineer Open Simulator. Anything not documented will not be supported.
[11:37 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: we want viewer devs  but not willing to help them with some proper docs
[11:37 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's not true and you know it
[11:37 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: mmm
[11:37 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: i been comming to these meetings a long time
[11:38 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Getting things documented in any project is a task usually thought of at the very end and often forgotten
[11:38 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That said when we are approached about missing documentation or the protocol we always try to help
[11:38 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: I am well aware - I would get pulled off of commercial projects just as I started
[11:38 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Anything not documented will not be supported is a hard sell in competition with viewer that do support it despite the perceived lack of documentation?
[11:38 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Either directly or by going in an adding the missing docs
[11:38 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: "Code in haste, document at leisure"
[11:38 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Like I said either on IRC or the mailing list if you complain someone will get around to it
[11:39 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Either answering directly or fixing the missing stuff on the wiki
[11:39 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: yes but not an efficient methodology when we are dependent on third party viewer devs
[11:39 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you are testing on Zeta anyways feel free to poke me I'll dig around in the OpenSim code for you find the relevant things
[11:39 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Fix it on the wiki, please.
[11:39 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: There are more players now.
[11:40 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Which gives you the opportunity to talk to them as well, you can also ask Gavin for help with protocol
[11:40 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I have to prioritize. Open Simulator varregions, or Second Life glTF content?
[11:41 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The wiki has many areas that have been massively neglected, that's unfortunately a given now
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: opensim ppl do love large regions
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: this is 1km for example :)
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well was 768m lol
[11:42 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: while gltf assets are a thing to see...
[11:43 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: VAR support is spread all over the viewer code including UI xml
[11:43 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No need to wait for the weekly meeting to ask questions, between mailing list, IRC and mantis there is plenty of ways to get in contact and squeeze us for information :)
[11:44 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I come from an aerospace background. If A and B won't work together, you look at the spec. The side that doesn't match the spec is broken. If you can't decide, the spec ic broken.
[11:44 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but the primary change is you can no longer assume a region is 256x256m
[11:44 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: same here, Joe
[11:45 AM PT]  Tess JL: What's the IRC channel?
[11:45 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/IRC
[11:45 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: Vincent, Joe mentioned 3 other devs, does each have to chase  the Core devs for the info  or wouldnt it be more expedient and efficient to  just update the wiki's
[11:45 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Without documentation, you're running on lore. Which means it's really hard to change anything.
[11:45 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists
[11:45 AM PT]  Tess JL: TY, Vincent
[11:46 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: I've NEVER assumed region size was 256x256!
[11:46 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Arielle, the biggest chase is the ever and rapid changing LL code
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well joe like or not.. there are a few niches where code is the spec :P
[11:46 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: so fix it Ubit
[11:46 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and they could not care what opensim wants or needs
[11:47 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Whose code? We have so many versions of everything.
[11:47 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: specially on the opensource domain..
[11:47 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: thay might have done to some extant for a while but not any more
[11:47 AM PT]  Tess JL: Ummm, Arielle, is it really fair to expect Ubit to write documentation for everything that happened to the code even before he joined the dev team?
[11:47 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: agree it is part of the issue Gavin but this non documerntation has been an issue for Opensim a long time since the change in core devs
[11:47 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: No, just where the viewer/simulator interface differs from SL.
[11:47 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: There aren't that many places.
[11:48 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: But they are not documented.
[11:48 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ok, guys, look - there is a small group of people that know and work on the code. On top of the normal bug fixes, they just got shafted my Micro$haft when the corp killed Mono, so they/we are slipping backwards faster than we can do anything about it.
[11:48 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And SL changing things that make no sense
[11:48 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe so, but in the big swing of things the opensim addition to the viewer code is not unsurmountable copared to grasping the overall viewer code
[11:48 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right.
[11:48 AM PT]  Tess JL: One question then: is there anything non-programmers can do to help the issue?
[11:49 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: There's not much difference. There's varregions. What else?
[11:49 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Testing
[11:49 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Tess, yes, if you find a page missing information you can politely poke someone to fix that up, but it might not be immediate
[11:50 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Code testing, verifying if reported bugs can be reproduced
[11:50 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that you don't know what grid you will oog in to and which version of opensim it runs
[11:50 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: support for grid currency different than L$, which is hardcoded in the LL viewer¨
[11:50 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: we have other changes
[11:50 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hypergrid
[11:50 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Currency. Go on.
[11:50 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: suticase in inventory
[11:50 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: hypergrid yes
[11:50 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Hypergrid, yes.
[11:50 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: differing permissions
[11:51 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Profiles, bakes, dynamic textures coming from region not asset server
[11:51 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all kinds of support urls that does or does not exist for a grid including search
[11:51 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: no xbakes
[11:51 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: how to buy currencies, ban lists
[11:52 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Zeta grid has something called a "buddy list" that shows up in the login reply, but I have no idea what it means.
[11:52 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Textures coming from the region is a non-problem because that's a full URL. That works now.
[11:52 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: profiles may be different now after LL removed interests
[11:52 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Would that be part of updating the user entering the grid about which of their friends are online?
[11:52 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no AIS support
[11:52 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: AIS?
[11:53 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: LL is moving everything off of UDP and onto their own inventory API
[11:53 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no grid have Havok physics
[11:54 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: script engine differences
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: physics is not a viewers issue
[11:54 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: For me, top priority would be varregions and hypergrid, Until you have those, you can't log in, move. and view at all.
[11:54 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: of course you can
[11:54 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a standalone can perfectly run without hypergrid
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: you should be able to login at region lbsa here
[11:54 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: as can grid
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( think i tried and crashed with yr viewer )
[11:55 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I can't log into a varregion properly because I'm not doing terrain properly.
[11:55 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Joe, if you are testing on Zeta and have questions how come you are not asking the person that's running that grid...
[11:55 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: If my viewer crashes, you should get a backtrace in a popup. Please screenshot and send to "info@animats.com".
[11:55 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, well having a var region as the login region is not a smart chose anyway
[11:55 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: BUMM
[11:56 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: did crash again lol
[11:56 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: panic.. bad mesh coords
[11:56 AM PT]  Arielle Popstar: never been an issue for me Gavin
[11:57 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Just get me a solid spec for varregions and I'll implement that. Part of the reason I'm annoyed about this is that I actually started implementing the old Aurora LLUDP messages for varregions, before finding out that's dead. Or at least I think it's dead. So I need a current spec.
[11:57 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so If I waa you I would initially prioritize login to a standalone with normal 256 regions and make sure everything works in that environement first
[11:57 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: was*
[11:57 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Already works for OsGrid and Kitely.
[11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: joe.. as i said.. not formally dead.. just moved to event capabity transport layer
[11:58 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Is there anything special about handling a var region other than the coordinates can have numbers > 256?
[11:58 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Bye all, gota run.
[11:58 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Anyway, I've said my piece. Thank you.
[11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( that in ll viewers do get same process methods as lludp)
[11:58 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: having login regions packed with prims and big size is a very good idea as new users are bound to have a bad experience there
[11:58 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Off to SL server meeting.
[11:58 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is a very bad*
[11:58 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Bye.
[11:58 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. Thanks for dropping by today.
[11:58 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: ...
[11:59 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Never felt so ignored
[11:59 AM PT]  Tess JL: Can I ask a question?
[11:59 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sure
[11:59 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Sure, Tess.
[11:59 AM PT]  Tess JL: Apart from Ubit of course, who else is working on the opensim 0.9.3 code?
[12:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ohh the same that did o
[12:00 PM PT]  Arielle Popstar: noone else allowed
[12:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ohh the same that did work on 0.9.2.2 !!
[12:00 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo chuckles
[12:01 PM PT]  Arielle Popstar: ^^
[12:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Tess, Ubit is about the only one actively working on the core version of OpenSim.
[12:01 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Patches come from all sorts of people, just had one come in the other day to fix something
[12:01 PM PT]  Tess JL: Ok
[12:01 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: we are thankful for them *smiles*
[12:01 PM PT]  Tess JL takes a deep breath
[12:01 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: let's be honest Ubit is the only one working on ti continously, with good contribution and testing from a few others, right?
[12:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Other people work on their own offshoots of it but don't often contribute code back to core.
[12:01 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gavin, ouch
[12:01 PM PT]  Tess JL: I have a proposal and it may be a bit shocking to some  people
[12:01 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That hurt
[12:02 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: You where one of the good contribution and testing ;-)
[12:02 PM PT]  Tess JL: I suggest all new code from now on is released not under the Free BSD license but under AGPL or similar
[12:02 PM PT]  Arielle Popstar: oh Robert Adams
[12:02 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why?
[12:02 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: No NO
[12:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: GPL is a NO NO
[12:03 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: What is AGPL?
[12:03 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: what is the benefit, Tess?
[12:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: we have no business with viral licenses
[12:03 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is no legal entity owning the code
[12:03 PM PT]  Tess JL: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/agpl-3.0.en.html
[12:04 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not going to sit and read the license. I think you need to articulate why the proposal? :-)
[12:04 PM PT]  Tess JL: The difference I'm looking for is that with AGPL developers are obliged to share their code even if they're only runing it on their own werver
[12:04 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so you talk about the viewer code?
[12:04 PM PT]  Tess JL: Not only does that mean we get more contributors but it also prevents the incompatibility problems we talked about earlier
[12:05 PM PT]  Tess JL: No, server code
[12:05 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The reason for the license we have goes back a long time with the idea being that if code changes are needed for a specific project forcing said projects to open that back up may actually compromise what they aim to do
[12:05 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: werver = server?
[12:05 PM PT]  Tess JL: I'm not sure if AGPL is exactly what we need, that's why I said AGPL or similar.
[12:05 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Say they are changing the whole login system to some API should they then expose their endpoint to everyone
[12:06 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: For the most part the grids running forks of OpenSim do try to contribute back to core
[12:06 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it will make it impossible to use for say EDU institutions
[12:06 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: also there are grids that ad proprietary stuff the code but still (sort of) work with viewers
[12:06 PM PT]  Tess JL: Why is that, Gavin?
[12:06 PM PT]  Arielle Popstar: just rarely accepted
[12:06 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: true, Gavin
[12:06 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because they will have all kinds of proprietary login code etc
[12:06 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: yes
[12:06 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: to be required to be open when you need some proprietary areas to function
[12:07 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Guess who was half responsible for fixing that banlist bug we just had ;P
[12:07 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly Lyr
[12:07 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: I am trying to figure out why someone would need proprietary stuff to function as an OpenSim node
[12:08 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not node
[12:08 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Seems to run against the whole concept
[12:08 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: grid
[12:08 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: they don't need it... they want to add it to "add value"
[12:08 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sorry , grid
[12:08 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: standalone grids, behind firewall
[12:08 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there exist many
[12:08 PM PT]  Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: bye all
[12:08 PM PT]  Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: have a freat week yall
[12:09 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( no tess GPL does not force anyone to give code that is running on own servers )
[12:09 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: you are only forced to give sources, if you give binaries for others to run/use
[12:09 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to head out to RL.. Take care everybody
[12:10 PM PT]  Arielle Popstar: Tc Cuga
[12:10 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Peace, Cuga
[12:10 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: LL publish the viewer code under the LGP version 2.1 license
[12:10 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Jamie. tc. See you again next week.
[12:10 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but does not matter.. GPL is above all a Religion and we do not hat religions on code things
[12:10 PM PT]  Tess JL: UBit, I said AGPL, not GPL. AGPL is a version of GPL specifically made for server side software
[12:10 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Cuga. See you again next week.
[12:10 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: opensim will stay on BSD
[12:11 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed Ubit
[12:11 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A license change would also require we deal with the contributors and perhaps even get them to sign off on it
[12:11 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeah
[12:12 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can your fork it and then change license on the fork for new code?
[12:12 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not that I would do that, but...
[12:12 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: at most i wold change to the BSD one that forces all users to mention "opensimulator" :)
[12:12 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but nahh  no need to change
[12:12 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I have trouble getting through all the wording in most licences and understanding the implications of them. This one (AGPL) I have to stop and look up the word "Affero" before I even get in to the body of the licence.
[12:12 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can license your changes, but only those and that's questionable territory still
[12:12 PM PT]  Tess JL: Yes Gavin, that's essentially what several commercial grids do. THey add their own proprietary code
[12:13 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Tess, if I had to open my code changes I would literally compromise the whole point of making the change and that is to add some security to my grid
[12:14 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo nods
[12:14 PM PT]  Arielle Popstar: so it at this point that even though we have a closed core dev team, most of whom no longer contribute, all other code suggestions or features are only ok'd by Ubit? Or do the other core devs have a say in it?
[12:14 PM PT]  Tess JL: Is there a license that would exclude security related code?
[12:14 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can't narrow it down to that
[12:15 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Closed grids might not add code, they may donate to Ubit so he can fuel his coffee addiction or they at the very least keep OpenSim in circulation
[12:15 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: and the issue with licenses is that their enforcement might lead to litigation, something that most of us prefer to avoid
[12:15 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there might be code handling monetary features, privacy, country specific code that is irrelevant to core
[12:16 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: without a legal entity owning the code, under what jurisdiction do you litigate
[12:16 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Technically misterblue and Andrew here still have at least some say in matters of code
[12:17 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unlike a certain someone they are around at least
[12:17 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: requirements that are required in the US may be banned in the EU and so on
[12:18 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not gonna divulge what I know, but probably best to keep things as is for various reasons
[12:18 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah
[12:18 PM PT]  Tess JL: Ok
[12:19 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Plus there are a lot of areas for third parties to contribute outside of code. The mantis needs help in re-testing old tickets, missing wiki articles you can throw my way to add to it
[12:19 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Expanding the libraries of default assets and things
[12:20 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Or just creating a nice well run grid for people to enjoy and spread the word
[12:20 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:20 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sending Ubit coffee also helps
[12:20 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or create content
[12:20 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: *laughs*
[12:21 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:21 PM PT]  Arielle Popstar: or cat food
[12:21 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok going rl for 15min or so
[12:21 PM PT]  Tess JL: That remind sme, I was going to ask at the Ktely forum but since you bring up the default assets here. I had some thoughts about buildign a new texture collection for the library. Anyt houghts on that?
[12:22 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good textures are always in demand, so please go ahead
[12:22 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Been thinking about taking the ones we have and running them through some AI to make them higher quality, better grass texture for example. They are just files referenced by some xml so expanding the library is fairly simple
[12:22 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Tess, what do you have in mind?
[12:22 PM PT]  Tess JL: I'll do a user survey on Kitely forum to see what people want but one question better asked here is how big can such a library be before it's too much?
[12:23 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: big
[12:23 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ubit might correct me on this, but the library should be something handed over by the region itself so you can test it without code changes as well
[12:23 PM PT]  Tess JL: It doesn't have anything to do with the code. The LIbrary is essentially the inventory of a non-existing avatar
[12:24 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( ok goin gafk for 15min.. or so )
[12:24 PM PT]  Tess JL: What I have in mind Andrew, is to compile a collection of good, useable textures to add to the library
[12:24 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds like a good time to wrap up the meeting.
[12:24 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you look at the libs many people have with 10k or not 100k textures, expanding the standard library some should be trivial.
[12:25 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good gestures
[12:25 PM PT]  Tess JL: I'll look into it. But I have to go now. See you all next week I hope
[12:25 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a lack of standard gestures
[12:25 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is also http://archive.opensim.me/ you can contribute to
[12:25 PM PT]  Tess JL: Sounds too
[12:25 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Tess. See you again next week.
[12:26 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: TC Tess
[12:27 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I should hop also
[12:28 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have a great week all
[12:28 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'll close todays meeting as we are starting to lose people.
[12:28 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
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