[18:01 UTC]   *** Logging started. ***
[11:01 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi
[11:01 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:01 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: problem is more concentration right now than burnout
[11:01 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unfortunately that is typical management attitude when dealing with any sort of creative people - my last one almost killed me
[11:01 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Hello *smiles8
[11:01 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hello, Lyr
[11:01 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Great to see you
[11:02 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Andrew you don't happen to have the ability to kick the webserver vm, wiki is dead
[11:04 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:04 AM PT]  Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi everybody
[11:04 AM PT]  Luisillo Contepomi: hi
[11:04 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Heya Ubit
[11:04 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I was just looking at the server. The database engine isn't starting. I'm about to check the log files.
[11:04 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hmm i did hire a AI bartender?
[11:04 AM PT]  Luisillo Contepomi: :-)
[11:05 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo chuckles
[11:05 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: did andrew?
[11:05 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:05 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Not me
[11:06 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: brb
[11:06 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... the file system is set to read only.
[11:07 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So is the disk full?
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:08 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: abtout disk full
[11:08 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Did you install FS beta? :P
[11:08 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: That was my first thought. Disk space seems ok.
[11:08 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: beq did apply my sugestion for a fix to the minmap textures, and it is on 6.6.12
[11:09 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: sadly she made a typo...  but it is better.. instead of silent fiilling the disk, it just crashs as soon you arrive to a non power of 2 region :)
[11:10 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is there a non power of 2 region to test in?
[11:10 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I added the code too
[11:10 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: If it saved that region as their last location and the user has the viewer set to login to last location they will be in a crash loop.
[11:10 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: event plaza
[11:10 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all right
[11:11 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so if I go there I sahll crash or not?
[11:11 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: if all goes well, if you select region textures on minimap ( other option is map textures) you should see them
[11:11 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks suspects the os.org machine ran out of memory and that caused some issues.
[11:12 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hmm?
[11:12 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hmm should i restart it now?
[11:13 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no crash
[11:13 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeap my patch ( even the one the made) does work
[11:13 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right. I did not take the FS version
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: she just lefet a "1 [11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeha she did replace the 1[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: heavier.. but welll ppl do not like binary ops for somereason
[11:16 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: about last week code changes.. think none :(
[11:16 AM PT]  Sim Stats : Region running: OpenSim 0.9.3.0 Nessie Dev 4462b65 (X64/Unix/DotNet)
[11:16 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: cosmetics
[11:16 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: New math for sun position and rotation
[11:16 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i did more httpwebrequest to httpclient change..  but di dnot commit
[11:16 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: oh ok cosmetics ..  dont deserve much talk here :)
[11:17 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I plan to one day actually understand how that sun and moon math works, but that amount of trig breaks my brain
[11:17 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: What's wrong with trig? ;)
[11:17 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hi, Kayaker.
[11:17 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well the one you see think is compatiblity conversions
[11:18 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Kayaker
[11:18 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Heya *grins*
[11:18 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: High all!
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: bc windlight and eep references
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well or something like that
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: they do work .. i hope :)
[11:18 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, what are the issues with the sun and moon calculations?
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: oh mb you mean just the interpolations..
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well something..
[11:20 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: HGB metioned dotnet6 in the latest article on opensim
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: im abotu to resart our box.. on andrew?
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: was not vincent.Sylvester   talkiing abotu it on that HGB ?
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok andrew?
[11:21 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: he was and so did I :-O
[11:21 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did send out a call for help with testing that's really all :)
[11:21 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, ok. I already issued a reboot so that may just be restarting the Linux within the vm. If you can restart the vm you can do that after we see how this reboot goes.
[11:22 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and Ispoke about the grid being converted
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel i shoud then wait for yours to end
[11:23 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Said in there you didn't get ubode to work? That confused me
[11:23 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I didn't but I only tried once
[11:23 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: besides there are way too many meshes that must be fixed for me to run it gridwide
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: did not work where?
[11:24 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: on my grid
[11:24 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I thought we had dylib version of ubode
[11:24 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel it is working fine
[11:24 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am sure it is
[11:24 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: some even made by gavin..
[11:24 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:24 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I did not put any effort into getting it working (see above)
[11:24 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: last by cuga ?
[11:25 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, nost made by Gavin
[11:25 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: what?
[11:25 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe I misunderstood that...
[11:25 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ugh yeah fixing mesh, that has been a thorn in my side too. It seems every version of FS now has different setup for mesh upload so the old tricks don't work anymore and now gotta actually create the physics as part of the visual meshes, which is a huge pain for the average use
[11:25 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ubode works fine on arm64
[11:26 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I built a universal binary
[11:26 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to clarify; I did not put any effort to make ubode work on my grid because too many meshes don't have proper physics models that work on ubode
[11:26 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Vincent is that missing?
[11:26 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so for now running Bullet where they work fine
[11:27 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I buikt the most recent macOS dylibs, they include ubode, bullet and jpeg2
[11:27 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: tested all
[11:27 AM PT]  Tess JL: For static objects a well made physics model works just as well with either fo the three physics engines really
[11:28 AM PT]  Tess JL: THe only problem with ubode is those msileading phsyics weights it sends to the viewer but those can simply be ignored
[11:28 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: it would be nice to document that in the wiki
[11:28 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: a physics page or something
[11:28 AM PT]  Tess JL: Yes. Who are the editors of the wiki?
[11:28 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: plus we donlt have a standard set of tests, though arguably maybe we should
[11:29 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Problem I have found, before you could build a visual mesh and a physics mesh and line them up by global model coordinates so that you can drape the physics over the visuals with just two parts. The actual standard demands every object or prim have a physics model assigned to it, so fixing older mesh by just making some dumb physics box now requires a lot more work
[11:29 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I think it's whoever is willing to put in the work of writing it
[11:29 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can download the model as collada and fix it up in blender, but the upload then requires you maintain the same prim setup if you ever want to apply the textures again, since you can only download those if you have them in inventory, which most don't
[11:30 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you have updates to the wiki that need doing you can ask Andrew to whitelist your wiki account otherwise just yell at me over IRC heh
[11:31 AM PT]  Tess JL: ok. Thank you
[11:31 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yeah you need the creator to re-upload the old mesh. Thats a widespread problem now.
[11:32 AM PT]  Tess JL: I'm not sure what the problem you describe is though. AFAIK meshes here have always rewuired separate physics models for each mesh
[11:32 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: standard does force a physics mesh???
[11:32 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: does not..
[11:33 AM PT]  Tess JL: Well, you *can* upload a mesh without a physics model of course but that's not goor content creation practice
[11:33 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you create an object that will be split into multiple prims then each of these needs to have physics assigned to them, where previously you could use one single prim mesh for just the physics
[11:33 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you try that now it places the physics mesh into the first prim mesh
[11:33 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I think FS uploader tries to prevent that now
[11:33 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but viewers will always upload a simple convex shape or hull
[11:33 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the uploader is more robust than it used to be
[11:33 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that is used is CONVEX physics type is select
[11:34 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Tess, a lot of people don't know how to properly create and prepare mesh for upload, or how to upload them properly.
[11:34 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: There is a whole lot of new code added to the physics generation logic with the meshoptimizer in the viewer
[11:34 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: older viewer's didn't enforce a proper physics model on upload
[11:34 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think a mesh that is split still will have OK physics mesh
[11:34 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: I took a mesh with physics that worked perfectly in SL and if was bad in OpenSim
[11:35 AM PT]  Tess JL: Good point, Andrew. There isn't much documentation for content creators out there
[11:35 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Same version of Firestorm
[11:35 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is most likely a consequence of Havok and not the viewer
[11:35 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: No argument there, but as Tess just said, there is zero reference docs
[11:35 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: My plan was to create a tutorial for users to fix their mesh given so long as you can upload the visual model exactly the same you can re-apply the texture through their UUIDs. Fixing the physics then you could accomplish by placing prims where you want collision and exporting those as collada then adding that as physics mesh. Unfortunately you cannot set just a visual and physics mesh as separate objects anymore
[11:36 AM PT]  Tess JL: I did write a "mesh physics 101" once. Posted it on the Kitely forum: https://www.kitely.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25
[11:36 AM PT]  Tess JL: That should explain everything anybody need to know about physics for *static* meshes
[11:36 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The option for use from file for physics will just place the mesh into the first object of the visual mesh instead of going by the global position, as it did before
[11:36 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I did not understand the last sentence Vincent?
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: For any object that doesn't need any physics, make a dae file with only a single mesh triangle. Save it and reuse it every time you make a phantom mesh.
This includes all wearable items btw.
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: NO
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no single triagle!!
[11:37 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is true Vincent if you use a mesh dae
[11:37 AM PT]  Tess JL: Is there a reason for that, Ubit?
[11:38 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well in some cases ubode may blow up lol
[11:38 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but it is useless
[11:38 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you use the meshoptimizer to generate the physics it is more well behaved
[11:38 AM PT]  Tess JL: I'll change ti then
[11:38 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: just do not touch physics tab
[11:38 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Tess, the wiki was updated with more up to date info about uploading mesh. We can't make people read it. They may do what works for them in SL or go by what other people tell them.
[11:38 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: if object will be phantom or type NONE just don't even open physics tab
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the viewer will only upload the convex HULL ( at most 256 verts ) hat he always does
[11:39 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Andrew do you have a URL handy for that?
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in word at sl or ubode that prim will be phanton or CONVEX only
[11:40 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: I am also curious about this meshoptimier...
[11:40 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: using cube, in fact fs does have that option now..
[11:40 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, not at the moment. The server is being worked on at the moment so I can't check the URL.
[11:41 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is standard in recent viewers, including mine
[11:41 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok np
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but it is better to add a extra cube prim inworld
[11:41 AM PT]  Tess JL: Article updated
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: at least at opensim, where number or prims matters less
[11:41 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: to read more about it https://meshoptimizer.org/
[11:41 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: mine has the cube too, although using Bounding box as the option
[11:41 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: bah. My cat is lying in front of the monitor making it hard to see parts of my screen.
[11:42 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: menu item text I mean
[11:42 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo grins at Andrew
[11:42 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: IT's a cat, that is what they do
[11:42 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Say I upload a table. It might split the legs off into 4 prims and the table top as main prim. If I now want to have a simple physics mesh to cover the whole thing then what you used to be able to do is go into physics, select from file and place some simple box in there to cover the whole object similar to a convex hull. Now what will happen it just places the physics mesh into the table top prim rather than placing it based on global coordinates. This is meant to be more in line with how you normally do meshes with physics when they are multiple objects. You are meant to assign a physics mesh for each object in your model. So that when you unlink your table you end up with parts still having physics. This makes fixing broken mesh a whole lot more complicated for the enduser.
[11:42 AM PT]  Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: ^^
[11:42 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc like other post there.. physcis is also use on rays and on sits
[11:43 AM PT]  Tess JL: wiki seems to be down
[11:43 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: combine the meshes into one before upload in your table case
[11:44 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If the mesh you downloaded is too complex it will split it and in case of fixing mesh you want to keep the object order intact else you can't apply the textures
[11:44 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: When you download without textures then it's all one texture, joining the mesh then messes with that ordering and so you can't apply the textures inworld anymore as that has changed
[11:45 AM PT]  Tess JL: If it's so complex it needs to be split, it's probably too complex for real time rendering anyway
[11:46 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Mesh getting turned into multiple objects is based on facecount, if you apply 100 different textures to an object without a UV map it will upload as separate objects
[11:46 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Depends - if it rendered ok before you took it to blender, it shouldn't need to split it up on the return trip
[11:46 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Actually I think you can upload a dae with 5 physical meses in that table case and apply to the mesh dae. It does of course give you a more complex physical model
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: why do you forget you cna just had prims later in world to do simple physics?
[11:47 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did consider changing the tutorial to basically say hey you gotta upload each prim on its own, but for a house with 20 objects takes forever
[11:47 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Orbert, if it rendered in what before you take it to Blender?
[11:47 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because if you have many such it impacts rendering performance
[11:47 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the renderer has to do passes to exclude transparent objects
[11:47 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: like this car
[11:47 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can set to phantom and place prims for most things, but of course that increases prim load too
[11:47 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: nice big mesh
[11:47 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: all type NONE
[11:48 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the root prim can't be NONE so a regular prim is added?
[11:48 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Another reason that mesh get split into multiple prims on upload is when they have more than 8 materials
[11:48 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in this case only ONE extra prim now visible
[11:49 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: if you wanted to walk on the car, you could set it to convex hull
[11:49 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that is also the root prim so vehcle script is simpler..
[11:49 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: only the root prm has physcs
[11:49 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: all rest is set to type NONE
[11:49 AM PT]  Tess JL: 100 different textures = 100 draw calls
[11:49 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: this is hwo you make cars for sl
[11:49 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( im talking abotu physcs)
[11:50 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: well you can set them all to type NONE just before driving it, to optimize physics, but have the script restore it to convex hull if you wanted people to walk on top while its parked
[11:51 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Did you model that car Ubit?
[11:51 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no
[11:51 AM PT]  Luisillo Contepomi: (uffff I thought it was a Tesla coming to steal my job.)
[11:51 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: jsut messed the script a bit and that physcis prim
[11:51 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:52 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: setting mesh to type None has its uses but there are times when you want convex hull
[11:53 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok not that.. i have a tank where i did add a few more prims to give better collisions walking on it
[11:53 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: all mesh type NONE
[11:53 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Primary problem have been buildings, which can be hard to fix and the whole point was to teach users how they should be uploading things in the first place as well. Course having to give them half a blender course to just add a physics box is more than most are willing to endure
[11:53 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I do a lot of work with cars in metaverse and maintain some vehicle scripts
[11:54 AM PT]  Tess JL: I have to go now. It's our constitution day tomorrow and I got lots to prepare and better not stay up too late
[11:54 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: bye Tess
[11:54 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: great to see you
[11:54 AM PT]  Tess JL: Have a god day/evening/night everybody
[11:54 AM PT]  Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: bye tess
[11:54 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In the end I can see why this was changed, because it's how you are meant to do things, it's proper according to standard, just sometimes a bit of a pain, but physics and mesh changes have a history of that
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hmm?
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: there where no big changes
[11:55 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: constitution day? Hm... wonder what part of the world does that.
[11:55 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ignoring some things told for bullet only
[11:55 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the FS mesh uploader has a cube option now for physics shape
[11:55 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so you dont have to prepare your own
[11:56 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:56 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but you do have to know how to use the uploader
[11:56 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *that* could use a good tutprial
[11:57 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: for os
[11:57 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://www.visitnorway.com/typically-norwegian/norways-national-day/
[11:57 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: mesh are as for sl
[11:57 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: mostly
[11:57 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Norway, Andrew
[11:57 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Doesn't help much that when I inquired about the change I was told there is a bug in there as a code merge didn't go as planned so at least in the version I have the uploader is pretty much broken
[11:57 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Are you too in Norway Orbert?
[11:58 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the FS uploader has some differences
[11:58 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: between sl 
[11:58 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: No, jsut a quick web search
[11:58 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Orbert, ty.
[11:58 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: NP
[11:58 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all right
[11:58 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Guess that tutorial has to wait a couple more months before I can continue on that
[11:59 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually national day is a misnomer, because it is the constitution of 1814 that is celebrated
[11:59 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it is the constitutional day
[12:01 PM PT]  Luisillo Contepomi: Thank you all so much for your great work. Time to recharge batteries.
[12:01 PM PT]  Luisillo Contepomi: bye
[12:01 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: bye
[12:01 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: New question: There is a INI setting to not count NPCs in the region, so is there any way
[12:02 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: to change how they appear in the viewer?
[12:02 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: I've seen "founders" appear as blue dots in the viewer.
[12:02 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: how they appear is viewer side thing
[12:02 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: we have no control on that
[12:02 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and viewers have no idea abotu npcs
[12:02 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you could only render frens in the viewer
[12:02 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: What makes 'gods' turn blue? A certain privilage level?
[12:03 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, change how they appear in what way?
[12:03 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: God names does that, ini setting on the grid side iirc
[12:03 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Be nice if NPCs did not appear in the mini map as green dots.
[12:04 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: god mode makes you turn blue in OS?.. cool
[12:04 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: neato
[12:04 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They are technically people to the region, just lacking some parts, so viewers will show them
[12:04 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: I've seen the founders of a grid show up blue, I don't know how to make that happen.
[12:05 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does the grid even know about founders?
[12:05 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: what are founders?
[12:05 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: lol
[12:05 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm going to play with god name settings this afternoon
[12:05 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo grins
[12:05 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: must be the grid creator/owner, but does the grid even know that?
[12:06 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: The people who founded the grid showed up as blue dots, so it was some admin or god setting... anybody know how they did that?
[12:06 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Vincent said its an ini setting
[12:07 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so if your avatar name matches a god name in the ini
[12:07 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what ini?
[12:07 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... As it seems someone else has already mention there is (IIRC) a setting about whether to show NPCs as avatars.
[12:07 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: gridcommon.ini?
[12:07 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: [12:03:35] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: God names does that, ini setting on the grid side iirc
[12:08 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: only place I recall god names are in opesnim.ini, but that is per simulator
[12:08 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok gods are not founders..
[12:08 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: opensim.ini
[12:08 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: ;[GodNames]
;    Enabled = false
;    FullNames = "Test User, Foo Bar"
;    Surnames = "Kryztlsk"
[12:09 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the only option we may have is not sent send npc dots at all
[12:09 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Sots a simulator-level setting then
[12:09 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So it's*
[12:09 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[12:09 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I checked and it is in opensim.ini
[12:10 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If the estate owners wanted to give some pop on the mini map they could do that
[12:11 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: FYI, There is AllowSenseAsAvatar in the [NPC] section. I just don't recall off hand if that only affects the use of llSensor or if it also affects dots on the map.
[12:11 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was about to say yeah that exists
[12:11 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They are counted as agents, because they are agents in the end, just cold dead shells of agents
[12:11 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:12 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It would be possible to read the UserLevel field in UserAccounts to get gridwide god names
[12:13 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is a GodNames module too outside the one built-in that gets that data from gridside, it also automatically forces those users into god mode at all times, which is annoying since it disables you from sensors
[12:13 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we don't want that
[12:13 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: NPCs need a lot of handling code to get them to survive restarts, so you might not want to restart a region unless the user on there has dealt with their NPCs first
[12:13 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no iti does not force
[12:13 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that was the old way
[12:14 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If you are shown as blue due to God Name ini setting do you also have god powers? I would prefer to be blue without god powers
[12:14 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: there are options to disable that..  and only get god mode, asking via viewer
[12:14 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: is that possible
[12:14 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: only a few powers stay always on.. like hmm kick ??
[12:14 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I only ask via the viewer
[12:14 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is no reaosn why any user should hop aroudn with god level on always
[12:15 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well opensim used to be like that
[12:15 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yeah too dangerous
[12:15 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: always god
[12:15 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is also not good from a copyright standpoint
[12:15 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Teleports to some extend are still userlevel dependent, but it won't let you bypass userflags
[12:15 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: those users can copy anything and everything
[12:16 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Estate and parcel access permissions are a mess
[12:16 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: do the god powers come automatically when blue?
[12:16 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: or are thos separate
[12:16 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: I maintain a grid.  would be clumsy to have to turn god on and off
[12:16 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cuga, that's what an external Godnames module does. The built-in one just colors things
[12:17 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: great thats what I was hoping
[12:17 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what do you have to do on a daily basis that estate manager cannot fix?
[12:17 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Someone threw that module my way years ago, grabbed the names from robust table and forced godmode for those users, because apparently they didn't know how to use userlevels
[12:18 PM PT]  Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: bye all
[12:18 PM PT]  Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: cya selby
[12:18 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gavin, currently there is a bit of bug in the way permissions are checked. Even as grid god userlevel 250 you can't get into a region that has "Must be 18 " set unless you have the appropriate userflag on your account as well. An estate owner that sets this effectively locks themselves out of the region
[12:19 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: This is because the order of checking is messed up and does parcel tests first rather than estate owner manager checks
[12:19 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I do have a patch to fix that up at least a little bit, but the whole setup is a bit of mess despite that still
[12:19 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: The opensimulator.org machine is back up and running.
[12:19 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: yay :D
[12:20 PM PT]  Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Have a great week yall
[12:20 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Peace Jamie
[12:20 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is it a big problem setting 18 yo on the user?
[12:20 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: on the estate manager user I mean
[12:20 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, http://opensimulator.org/wiki/How_To_Upload_Mesh
[12:20 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Jamie. Thanks for dropping by
[12:20 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: *waves*
[12:21 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thx Andrew
[12:21 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: yw
[12:21 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not really, userflag 44 if you wanna make sure you can't lock yourself out, but ideally as estate owner at least you can still access your own region right xD
[12:21 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Legitimate use of that parcel setting for when you want to keep the kids off the lawn though since we do support it if you have something to do the age verification with
[12:22 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Though the payment on file or rather payment used flags also work and can be set for access to parcels
[12:22 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the 18  checkbox os different setting than General/Moderate/Adult correct?
[12:22 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: payment passes can be set too, haha
[12:23 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes the content ratings aren't checked against anything, they are just what the estate owner set them to
[12:23 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Mostly self-observing things those ratings, 18  actually is an access flag that is checked, same with payment on file
[12:23 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: need go rl for 15min
[12:23 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: brb
[12:24 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think I will go for today.
[12:24 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Will problaby not show next week as I have surgery the day after
[12:24 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, then it is time to wrap things up for today. I need to get back to some other things myself in RL.
[12:24 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I should probably go too
[12:24 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: np, Gavin. I hope all goes well with the surgery.
[12:24 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thanks to the group, I learn something new every day
[12:25 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: On that note, thank you all for coming. See you most of you again next week. :)
[12:25 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hope you recover quickly Gavin :)
[12:25 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am sure it will, thanks.
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